....LMB: "Jake vs. Low Female Self-Esteem"....

<heh> I actually like my women with pores. And anyone who thinks the "real" version of that lady is unattractive is severely deranged.

I have been sending that link to everybody lately. We sometimes forget that in the real world, people have pores.

hmmm, very interesting - i'm terribly sorry i missed your diatribe - i would have been very interested in the tone you took with the subject. whilst some women perform the dance of spring when a man looks upon them, others would much rather like to give a man a compliment and have legitimate discourse, without men thinking we want to blow their proverbial horn of plenty (this term may not apply to all). those women who truly know themselves know they rock and don't need the brotherly advice from a online guru --harsh i know, but it is what it is... we feminists make up a large part of the proletariat, speak up sisters! your article really made me want to add some expletives to this response, do you dwell in a cave cloistered by wanna be actresses who quiver at the mention of your name?

Ugh, identity politics rears its ugly head...Jake, you should know better than to play armchair feminist. How dare you, you condescending bastard! The funny thing is that I half agree with Paula (which is why I usually refrain from commenting on feminism unless I'm asked to!) and the other half is sick of "because you're not like me, your ideas are useless."

Hmmm...after reading Jake's article, I can see why Paula was pissed (sorry Jake, I know you meant well, but women can take care of themselves). It's sort of the same reaction I get when some white, middle-class liberal talks about racism as if they're experts on minority oppression. Still, I don't think rigid identity politics is good either.

thank you eric... pondering what you submitted

sub-grouping/factioning within the proletariat is exactly what "they" are looking for, i agree, eric. on a critical level though, and just as jake mentioned (i'll give him credit here) women are bombarded with unrealistic images of what they should look like, sound like and personally value. desperate times call for desperate measures, sometimes identity politics are the facilitators of change, i.e. the black panthers.

sub-grouping/factioning within the proletariat is exactly what "they" are looking for, i agree, eric. on a critical level though, and just as jake mentioned (i'll give him credit here) women are bombarded with unrealistic images of what they should look like, sound like and personally value. desperate times call for desperate measures, sometimes identity politics are the facilitators of change, i.e. the black panthers.

sub-grouping/factioning within the proletariat is exactly what "they" are looking for, i agree, eric. on a critical level though, and just as jake mentioned (i'll give him credit here) women are bombarded with unrealistic images of what they should look like, sound like and personally value. desperate times call for desperate measures, sometimes identity politics are the facilitators of change, i.e. the black panthers.

sub-grouping/factioning within the proletariat is exactly what "they" are looking for, i agree, eric. on a critical level though, and just as jake mentioned (i'll give him credit here) women are bombarded with unrealistic images of what they should look like, sound like and personally value. desperate times call for desperate measures, sometimes identity politics are the facilitators of change, i.e. the black panthers.

Somewhere between retouched photos, cosmetic surgery and Women who will (take it all off)...there is always that person like me. I only care about one man's opinion, and sometimes not even his. When a friend suggested I put my photo on my web page, I declined stating that who I am has little to do with what I look like. It takes young women a few years before they realize that people should be shown inside-out so you get a real view from the start. I feel lucky to have figured it out sooner than most.

Facilitators of change, yes. Dividing and conquering ourselves, no. As long as we all realize the difference.

eric, realization clear: you do realize we have some MAJOR damage to address just in the last 10 years alone in the area of sexism though? and erin, i feel pretty lucky to have grasped this too, i cant even imagine living in an emotional quagmire of unworthiness.

eric, realization clear: you do realize we have some MAJOR damage to address just in the last 10 years alone in the area of sexism though? and erin, i feel pretty lucky to have grasped this too, i cant even imagine living in an emotional quagmire of unworthiness.

There has been considerable reaction in the areas of sexism, racism, classism, etc. As for sexism, I think the crude male chauvinism in popular culture speaks for itself (though that's just one example). It's a reactionary backlash against feminist empowerment. So how is this to be combated? I think any movement - feminist, minority, gay, etc. should be part of a greater diverse movement. My point is that rigid identity politics tends to be exclusionary and counterproductive, making a larger movement impossible (I won't even get into the sexism that exists in minority groups, that's another topic for discussion). At the same time, self-empowerment is the only way since no one else can set you free. Unfortunately, many women seem to be submitting to the post-feminist mindset, being afraid to speak out against sexism, etc. I've heard men say vile, sexist things around women, who just roll their eyes and say harmlessly, "Oh, men." and that's the end of it. That's an indication to me that there has been a lot of damage done here. Thoughts???

Eric, I feel sorry for the females you were around... I do a little less eye rolling. My father refers to my responses to such vile behavior as verbal castration. At least he acknowledges that I MUST BE PROVOKED. In a perfect world we would not have to banter back and forth with insults and uneducated assumtions of others. If you find that world let me know..my bags are packed and ready to go.

reactionary backlash to female empowerment..... or... fear of the abolition of the madonna-whore complex, i vote for the latter and no, they are not the same thing. a supermarket of men for friends, mates and lovers exist for us, to some male misfits this is very frightening, especially to those ill equipped. women who let themselves be raked over the verbal coals are sadists, hoping for that special spot amongst the unenlightened bourgeois male population, who supposedly provide the all too played out material security option and those same women are so quickly identified by real women whilst escape the unscrutinizing male eye most of the time. i do concur separationism can all too quickly quash a true movement, addressing these issues and supporting your female comrades will make that said movement succeed. thanks to jake for the ability to have this mini forum

Paula, let me tell you what I have noticed in this world today..hear me out..I spent several years in management. The business in dominated by women. I saw alot of women working thier butts off and thier men sitting on thiers. Sort of the Mr. Mom thing except without the caring for children, running all the errands, and keeping a tidy house. Basically uselessness. Somewhere the tides turn so much that there are men out there who have taken female empowerment to the hilt. Milk the proverbial cow for all it is worth. These women don't mind working. They simply want the partnership to be equal.
In the long run I think this is what we are all looking for."Armchair" nothing. Any open minded intelligent person SHOULD be able to grasp that racism, sexism, classism, etc... is wrong. But people in general are driven to power and control.The major idea is how do we individually learn to share without feeling we have compromised ourselves. The bottom line is that alot of feminists (sorry) forget that the major design requires TWO. A man and a woman to make a child, a mother and father to raise a child. And in the scheme of it all both need to realize the value of the other...don't you think?

Madonna-whore complex is right, particularly when talking about American attitudes towards sex and gender. It's a confused view - the clash of puritannical values and oversaturation of sex that assault the senses. Again, popular culture provides many examples - the M/W manifestation of the "virginal slut" image in the teen pop scene. Talking about having it both ways. We want women to be virgins, but yet sexual. No wonder many Americans are head cases -- dysfunctional, neurotic.

Erin's mention of women in the workplace reminded me of another issue that needs to be address. I'm saying this somewhat flippantly, but not entirely. What's the point of having advancements of women, minorities, etc. if they're just going to support the same white, patriarchal capitalist system, as bell hooks once called it? This seems to point to a need for a broader assault against the system (whatever that is, heh).

erin, you're just preaching to the choir in reference women working their behinds off,(no disrespect intended), but if i may tactfully add, i liked the zeal with which you presented those facts. when i first read your dialogue i felt misheard but after rereading it, i digested and mulled over your p.o.v. feminists are very often incorrectly labeled as man-haters, dissectors of the family, i could go on. truth be told i adore men, but accept estrangement, harrassment of all varieties, and unequal pay in order to have a guy at home treat me like rhino dung, just to say i have a family? never! healthy egalitarian based families are a beautiful thing and a confident guy to watch the science channel with at the end of a long day is my version of heaven but i live on rue de hades, ha ha- my hopes are that all women can meet their ideal mate and be truly recognized either silently/or outright for them just being their incredible selves, that makes a great family foundation. the input from eric is right on the money in reference to women supporting unethical entities (any multinational corporation) in middle and upper management, we have to let go of the brahmins robes and let them clean up their own sheit off the street of old calcutta.

Paula, I got a chuckle out of your mention of watching the science channel with your guy at the end of a day's work. That is what I do. We enjoy documentaries, CNN, and basically anything that creates some information for our minds to delve into. Now, more than ever, I see our relationship as being equally supportive of each other. I DID make more money than my husband while I was in management, but when I decided that I wanted to leave and take a less demanding job in order to have more time at home.. He had my back, so to speak. I am, at the core, a workaholic. Somewhere down the line I realized that the money wasn't all that important and neither was the title. I wasn't happy and that was making everything fall apart. I have always encouraged the women around me to "not put up with it". I acknowledge, though, that our value systems change from person to person.Always an unfortunate circumstance to me when the self esteem issues of any PERSON, male or female, leads them to let themselves be treated poorly. I guess I just look at the world from more of a stand point of human, rather than male or female because I have honestly seen the same issues for both sexes. You know, when the need to be with someone overrides your own identity or self worth. On another note..Eric, I am so proud of my kids. My son states that it takes more than being cute before he can like a girl, my oldest daughter stopped listening to Brittany Spears music all together because she tells me that she just looks like"trash" now. Thank God! It is nice to know that at thier young ages they at least already have a clue. The Madona-whore, and virginal-slut issues get on my last, very last, nerve. Michelle Branch, Vanessa Carlton...they have my vote on the teen pop scene and my kids know it. I have a deep admiration to those performers who dive into thier music instead of thier sexuality. I have always prefered staying true to yourself.

Before this thread goes into archival obscurity, I'd like to say, "Amen."